Progressive. In the idctionary the description is: Moving forward; advancing

So, when we go from that description, which is the most progressive album Yes has ever done in your opinion and what makes it so?

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"The epitome of creativity is the state of dynamic tension between extreme forces in opposition". Not only the state of dynamic tension, but also the state of dynamic balance." - Patrick Moraz

Funny Arno, just this noon I was writing, that Open Your Eyes to me in some ways is more progressive than let's say the quite proggy sounding Keys To Ascension. Because it developed the Yes canon more than the latter album, Keys, which is Yes' most retro work...

The question is, which Yes music fired the band as well as music in general in a new dimension, which album offers the most of new ideas...

As you ask for "Progressive" and not for "prog", it's difficult. "prog" is a musica style for me, which covers long form tracks, a tendency to melody, much breaks, which means patchwork-arrangements, not really down to earth lysrics and much more specials...

Progressive music can be something else, it's music that looks over the horizon. "Prog" did that in then 70s, but modern "prog" in contrast is maybe the most conservative music of our days, it just looks back to the 70s...

I would like to judge here, which Yes-album(s) offered the most progressive, new elementsm that still stand the test of times...

All in all, it's a tough question, and I would have loved to have more chances to vote, I think, that Yes in each decade made at least one most progressive album... I can't decide now, but...

... hot candidates are... The Yes-album, Tales, Relayer, Drama, Big Generator, Talk and Magnification... more later...

Using your definition- or at least my interpretation of it- I'm going with CTTE. It was a breakthrough album and a departure from Fragile with a side-long track and then just 2 others on side 2. It moved the genre forward so that an album like Tales was possible. Relayer followed and that was made possible by CTTE as well with a similar set-up. One side long song and then 2 more on side 2. So, there you have it, the most progressive album by Yes ever is CTTE.

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Rob

Did you put in a wrong vote? The poll says there's only one vote so far and it's for Tales

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"The epitome of creativity is the state of dynamic tension between extreme forces in opposition". Not only the state of dynamic tension, but also the state of dynamic balance." - Patrick Moraz

I voted. That's 1 for CTTE.

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Rob

Oh this is a toughie... Tales..... CttE.......


I can't choose... Boy the way Tales travels in and out of the theme of the album though out, but all in all just becasue Tales is really just one really long song, does that make it more prog? .... CttE the song is to me the true definition of prog...


Yep it CttE!

Hands down it is The Yes Album! This is the album that catapulted Yes onward to do great things. It was the first time their compositions were longer in nature where a melodic theme was introduced by 1 of the players and then taken forward with instumental freedom by all members of the band. It is the YES Album.

I think TYA, CTTE and TFTO are good candidates, but....Talk as well. It does fit the discription of "moving forward and advance" in more then one way IMO. The recording technique used for example was advanced at the time, but it was also moving forward in a sense that it was the first time Rabin and Anderson really collaborated in the writing process.

I have to think about it some more myself, before reaching a decision....

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"The epitome of creativity is the state of dynamic tension between extreme forces in opposition". Not only the state of dynamic tension, but also the state of dynamic balance." - Patrick Moraz

Talk. Mr. holland? Talk moving forward? Talk moved the band into the era of mediocrity. Oh Boy, here we go again!

We're talking about albums themselves, not necisarrely what they did for the band in terms of succes and I feel strongly about Talk being progressive in the manner described in my initial post in this thread.....yep, here we go again!

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"The epitome of creativity is the state of dynamic tension between extreme forces in opposition". Not only the state of dynamic tension, but also the state of dynamic balance." - Patrick Moraz

I agree with Bernie. The Yes Album laid the real foundation for everthing that came after it.

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And in the end... The love you take... is equal to the love... you make.

Well yes, it was the move into what really made Yes a progressive band... But I wouldn't say that it was neccesarily the proggiest album... I mean really, take a look at what they did on Relayer, who was doing THAT at the time?

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you. It has to be Relayer. Hands AND feet down. I agree that The Yes Album set the stage and took them from a place they were going to another plane that BEGAN their progressive march. But that's not the question. The question is what is the MOST progressive album they ever did. Firstly, it was not a concept album, which is key for my definition. It was still a collection of unrelated songs. Yes, it was the first album of completely original material, but that is also one of the things that makes it less progressive than the others in my book. Just because it's the first original collection of songs that catapaults them into the already progressive world of music doesn't define the word "most." Groundbreaking in ways, Yes. But in the grand scheme of things not the most progressive. ISAGP, for example is not a progressive song imo. It rocks but isn't particularly progressive musically or in it's concept. Neither is Clap progressive. Wonderful guitar musicianship yes, but truly progressive? I don't think so. A Venture is nice but not pushing a lot of boundaries. Starship Trooper gets us there as does Perpetual Change. Yours Is No Disgrace picks up on the powerful opening organ octave that moves into the huge Bonanza/Big Country theme which while cleverly applied doesn't conjure up the word "progressive" to me.

I think of progressive in terms of key changes, time signatures, depth of the writing, the story, the vocals, lots of counterpoint, bass riffs folding back onthemselves and this sense of an entirely new soundscape being carved with virtually every bar, often every note. In this context one could make the argument for Close To The Edge. No question. But there were even greater progressive moments to come. This was not the "most" progressive they would get.

Now when you stack up Gates Of Delirium, Soundchaser and To Be Over three against three with CTTE and look at the stylings, the heights that the music scales and the ultimate ground that was broken, I do believe that Relayer gets the edge as being the MOST progressive they ever did. Relayer is tight. I think more so than The Yes Album because the band already had three albums of original material that had become increasisngly more progressive. The Yes persona came to full fruition in Relayer on such a grand scale that built on Tales From Topographic Oceans but clearly was better composed, far more focused, tighter in the turns and moved into an ocean of sounds that were waters the band never navigated before. The rhythm section was the tightest they'd ever been. Howe did things with a Telecaster I didn't think were possible, Anderson crafted and delivered some of the most powerful, compelling, majestic and touching vocals ever. Soon speaks for itself and still brings people to tears. And the biggest reason for my vote for Relayer is what Moraz brought to the table. Moraz is a far better keyboard player than Wakeman. I love Wakeman. He's fantastic. But Moraz broke new ground with his sound and his approach. I've said before that all Yes fans would have had to hold on tight if Moraz and the rest of the boys had done another album together. I think it would have blown the roof off the word "progressive."

Relayer gets my vote.

P.S. Oh, and recording music on a computer doesn't count as progressive.

Sorry.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

Mark Twain

Wow.. Now that was a awesome post Stevo... You sold me...

Well it does when following the description of progressive in the dictionary as I gave in my intial post....

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"The epitome of creativity is the state of dynamic tension between extreme forces in opposition". Not only the state of dynamic tension, but also the state of dynamic balance." - Patrick Moraz

Well, Arno, to split a hair that's only half the definition. I think most of us here would define "progressive" as relating to the "music" not the recording technology. Besides, I for one believe that digital recording wasn't at all progressive but rather regressive in that it yielded a cold, detached feeling to the end product. Things have changed over the years in that regard, but that's how I felt about Talk. And, speaking purely on a musical level, Talk didn't break ANY new ground imo.

I put it on a month ago in my bi-annual objective attempt to give it the occasional listen and it just gets harder to listen to the older I get. Sorry.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

Mark Twain

I was just about to say the same thing!

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Wish the sun to stand still.

In think, Steve, actually, a lot of the most progressive music of our days is made on computers. In the end, it doesn't count on what instruments music is made, essential is the result.

I agree though, that a lot of electronic music lacks soul and beauty, but it's just progressive, advanced... On the other hand there is enough electro pop or electro rock that is really beautiful and offers new soundcapes... Brian Eno is just one of the most popular explorers here, Kraftwerk as well...

Another remark about technology, the Beatles would not have been possible without the revolutions in technology in the 60s... Sgt. Peppers, one of the most progressive albums ever, was a triumph of the 8-track-studio as well. Another Milestone in Pop-Music, The Beach Boys Pet Sounds was a high tech album at its times. Both bands managed to use technology to express their creativity... others got trapped in high tech... it depends... but without technology there would have been not much progression in music...

Just short about Talk again, it's for sure one of Yes' most progressive albums, if you like it or not: This kind of High-Tech-Soul-Rock still ahead of its time...

bernard, don't step into that trap, that only those music you like and only those music which is "angelic" or epic for you is progressive.

Like I wrote in my first post here, progressiveness and "prog"-rock are two quite different things since the end of the 70s... Only from early to the mid-seventies both were identical...

Or to make it short, even for progressive music counts: size does not matter.

No Peter, I wouldn't dare get myself into that trap. But talk was a final shot of recreating 90125 pizazz and it fell flat on its face. Talk was not progressive any way you look at it.

This is a very nice post O.G and i cannot disagree with anything that you said but i will stick with the Yes Album and the reason is because this album was a huge "progressive leap" from their previous albums. This is where the longer compositions began and the other things i previously mentioned. The success of this album was the stepping stone for the ones to follow. The Yes Album was the big leap and the rest that followed were a further smaller step up the progressive ladder. For this reason it was the most progressive.

Thanks, Bernie, I appreciate it. But I disagree for the reasons stated in my post. Was The Yes Album Progressive? Yes. The most progressive? Nope.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

Mark Twain

All a matter of semantics O.G. Was Relayer the most Progressive as far as "stretching" their progressive limits ? Maybe Yes but i have always felt that Ritual is at the very top of any progressive list so Tales is probably a small notch above Relayer for that reason in my opinion. But it is a close call either way with no right or wrong answer. I still pick the Yes Album as it was the biggest creative and progressive leap that they made when you compare it to their previous albums.The Yes Album set the stage for what was to follow. The success of that album made all the rest that followed possible.

Talk was a big step backward, not forward. With the exception of Endless Dream, there was nothing progressive about it.

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Rob

Sorry Steve, I still have to side with Bernie on this one. The foundation reason still holds but I think that it is worth noting that when you see YES in concert it is highly likely that you will hear 4 if not 5 of the 6 songs on that album. I think the most progressive definition is a matter of view point. If you look at HOW Relayer sounds as opposed to the YES Album then Relayer wins hands down. But if you look at the over all effect that The Yes Album had over the general listening public in introducing them to the concept of Prog music... then it could be called the most progressive due to its impact in turning the world onto this genre. I know it sounds like double talk but it's early and the second cup of coffee has not kicked in yet.

Now in regards to your view of recording into a computer I must take issue with that in a degree. It is not the tool itself but in how you use it (and I don't want any perverted comments here...guys!) But that is another thread.

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And in the end... The love you take... is equal to the love... you make.

I agree with Fritz here. The Yes Album was a huge Progressive leap from the past and was followed by a smaller step, Fragile, and another smaller step CCTE, followed by another smaller step etc. but the BIG leap was the Yes Album

So, are you're saying it really doesn't matter how big my hard drive is?

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Rob

Ahhh come on Rob!!!! LOL

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And in the end... The love you take... is equal to the love... you make.

Hmmm. Nobody's offered a convicing enough argument to sway me. Relayer will always be the most progressive album in my mind. Ritual and TRSOG are awesome and right up there, no doubt, but note for note, Relayer slays them all.

Now, as a guy with digital recording stuff in my basement and an all-digital home theater, I don't take issue with that technology itself. It's just 1s and 0s. But Talk suffered because of the infancy of the technology and the rather cold production and application of it. 'Course, then there's the actual music itself. It will always be a distant, mechanical, shrill sounding album to me.

But to each, his or her own. That's what makes the world go 'round.

Cheers.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

Mark Twain

Man, what a great post Steve. This is a pretty tough question, but you're asolutely right! I'm not quite hands and feet down on Relayer...yet, only because I have a hard time leaving out CTTE. I definitely would not pick Tales as the most progressive, in that I define progressive the same as you and Tales just doesn't change often enough. If I had to pick the two most progressive "songs", I would pick Gates and CTTE. Comparing those two songs, Gates has this depth... Both songs went to my core instantly upon hearing them for the first time. You definitely have me thinking. I'll have to listen to both albums again, as a whole, with this in mind, but off the top of my head, I do believe you got it!

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Long ago, set into rhyme